GM needs to bring back plastic T-tops on the Camaro

"dogisbadob" (dogisbadob) 02/25/2019 at 21:31 • Filed to: None

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Yes, I am still PISSED that you can;t get a new Camaro with T-tops because GM half-assed and left that critical feature put of the 5th gen Camaro. I mean COME ON, that’s what they’re known for! The Camaro, oh yeah, the car with the T-TOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Late 3rd-gen F-bodies, 3.5-ge n, 90-92, came with plastic T-tops. These weigh less than glass, which will shut the anti T-top tards up that complain about extra weight. Oh and also, plastic doesn’t shatter. The problem, of course, is that the plastic scratched easily, so anyone who complained during the warranty period got a replacement set of glass T-tops.

For the 4th gen, they stopped using hte plastic T-tops, but the 4th gen cars were designed as T-tops from the very beginning, so there was no extra weight penalty at all. 4th gen hardtops are structurally the same as the T-top cars but with a sheet metal panel welded in place. In fact, it’s relatively easy to convert them to T-tops by just taking off the metal roof and putting the glass panels on.

Of course, GM has always been too stupid to also offer metal T-tops on the Camaro/Firebird. The Corvette has been available with a metal targa top since at least the C5.

My bird IS the word > dogisbadob 02/25/2019 at 21:48

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As far as I know, T-tops are counted as a hardtop so they aren’t immune to certain crash safety standards like convertibles, hence their death.

I love t- tops but a full targa roof panel (or a split panel like on the aventador) is more attractive to me.

Honeybunchesofgoats > dogisbadob 02/25/2019 at 21:49

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I had a 97. I only vaguely ever remember removing the t-tops. I think I must have just really hated putting them in the trunk. 

dogisbadob > My bird IS the word 02/25/2019 at 21:51

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GM makes soft top convertibles that meet the standards (with the top up, of course) even though they are exempt.

Glass will shatter. Plastic will not :o)

facw > My bird IS the word 02/25/2019 at 21:55

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The reverse is sort of also true, a lot of the reason for the explosion of T-Tops (along with the T arga) in the ‘ 70s was that pretty much every car maker was convinced that the government was going to ban convertibles  or pass rollover requirements that would make it impossible to offer a convertible. That never happened, but it meant a lot of time in the ‘70s designing convertible alternatives as well as leading to a dearth of convertibles into the ‘80s when it became clear that such bans were not actually likely.

Milky > dogisbadob 02/25/2019 at 22:01

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Why you need the center bar tho?

Gerry197 > dogisbadob 02/25/2019 at 22:11

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The T-Tops in plastic were lighter yes, but the body reinforcements still added more weight than a hardtop. 

wafflesnfalafel > dogisbadob 02/25/2019 at 22:28

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The new Mustang really could use t-tops too.  I don’t really like convertibles and want the stiffness of a coupe - t-tops seam to be the perfect compromise to me personally.  

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > dogisbadob 02/25/2019 at 22:32

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dogisbadob > Gerry197 02/25/2019 at 22:44

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Right, but once the 4th gen came in, even the hardtops have the same body reinforcements as the T-tops. So had they still offered the plastic T-tops on the 4th gen, then the T-top version would actually weigh less than the hardtop.

If they were able to do this in the 4th gem, they could’ ve done it in the 5th gen. The 5th gen Camaro convertible isn’t that great structurally, and actually a step backwards from the 4th gen.

Gerry197 > dogisbadob 02/25/2019 at 22:57

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That’s interesting, I’ve always been a big fan of the F-body, though it’s mainly because I could afford one now.  I found a green Firebird Formula manual T-Top that caught my eye.  I may pull the trigger on it. 

AestheticsInMotion > dogisbadob 02/26/2019 at 00:19

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Mmm. My original plastic rear window shattered. Damn cold weather... 

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > dogisbadob 02/26/2019 at 00:48

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I love the concept of T-tops/Targa top . Never had them, always have wanted a car with them... Fox Mustang, Mark III Supra, Gen III or IV Firebird, Z32 300ZX... all sorts of cool cars.

Always heard that they leak, the cars flex and un-seal the panels, the seals perish over time, and so forth.

Now cars like BRZ/86 and Mustang don’t even have sunroof options due to the complex curvature of the roof... but also no glass roof option, only full-soft-top convertibles for Mustang and Camaro, not BRZ/86 or Challenger)

But the modern T-top is not glass, it is cloth or composite.

and perhaps the new ultimate:

McLaren’s latest reason why having a fixed roof is a limitation, compared to the folding roof being just as good of a coupe when closed, and just as good as a convertible when open... plus the folding panel, and the C-pillar buttresses are transparent.

The 720S coupe may have doors that cut into the roof like a T-top, but they are only transparent, even with the windows rolled down, the roof panels are still in place, the Spyder can independently roll down the side windows , and the REAR window, as well as stowing the roof panel, for various stages of open and closed,

The kicker is, you don’t even have to stop and get out of the car to open it up when the mood strikes, or close it up before parking or if the weather stops cooperating, or just to quiet the wind noise at speed.

Miata RF is a start... but there needs to be MORE affordable folding-targa-roof options.

Shift24 > dogisbadob 02/26/2019 at 01:12

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As a 4th gen owner, I am glad they left them off these gens. Going through car washes, you’ll get sprayed. If you dont have them set right, they will leak. Which sucks especially if it down pours as you are on I-71 going down to Cincinnati and have to pull over to readjust them. As me how I know. Also burring you hand on them as one slips and you go to grab it so it doent shatter on a hot day leaving work. Side note Plastic fades and degrades and can crack. And no, my rubber seals are in tact , seal fine, and not rotting.

Another reason, Body flex. The 5th and 6th gen are notorious for stiff chassis AKA torsional stiffness. So much so the Camaro is rarely put with its Muscle class and is fighting the Germans, and winning against cars like the   M4 .

Also dont give me the convertible BS. Those are for Hair S alon Stylist and mid life crisis . No one going racing is going to consider a Vert. If they are, its only for the “shock” factor

Lastly the roof line. If you do go racing it is a pain in the ass to get a cage to fit. The low roof line make it hard especially when the roll cage has to clear your helmet by 2", I think... its been awhile

arl > dogisbadob 02/26/2019 at 09:00

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Agreed. Automotive world needs more t-tops. 

Speed > Gerry197 02/26/2019 at 09:16

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Green is where it’s at! Here’s my bright green metallic (one of 323) ‘98 Z28. It’s a hard top car. If you haven’t driven one, I suggest going and giving it a look. The 4th generation F-Bodies are fantastic platforms that are dirt cheap to keep on the road and modify. 

dogisbadob > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 02/26/2019 at 11:29

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Heavy, complicated top motors :(

Also, the Mustang is available with a fixed-glass roof

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > dogisbadob 02/26/2019 at 12:20

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A: Complicated... have you seen a modern car? complicated is an understatement and we are way, way down that rabbit hole on every system on a modern car. If complicated is a problem, best stick to classic cars.

B.1 : Heavy... not so much... and again, in context of new cars being generally heavier. The delta between Miata and Miata RF (120lbs but much better insulation from heat and cold) , Porsche 991 with a metal or glass sunroof, targa roof, or cabriolet roof, (lightweight options are 911T or GT3) or the McLaren 720S vs 720S spyder (108lbs increase over the coupe, but still under 3000lbs total) is probably a pretty small fraction of the car’s overall weight, and the chassis is already optimized for rigidity without a roof... so having a roof in place is just surplus, and having a roof that can go down is enough of a plus to overcome the relatively quite small weight penalty effect.

B. 2: Stepper motors, servos, and associated hardware is optimized, and some of these targa folding roof options have lighter weight mechanisms and roof panels than a convertible with a full canvas or hard folding roof, like Merc SL, Ferrari Portofino, and such, and much lighter than previous decades of automotive engineering.

B.3: several years ago, manual crank side windows disappeared, because a hand-cranked regulator was surpassed, and the electric driven regulator became lighter than the manual crank gearset and handle, in addition to most instances being more reliable for lifetime-service than previous powered regulators, and fewer parts count to just have the electric option be standard.

B.4: if every ounce of weight, and every percentage point of complexity removed is a major concern, then most modern cars are going to disappoint on every point of consideration, short of track-day specials with fixed carbon roof skins, radio delete, and all sorts of other motorsport considerations. Conversely, most modern road cars sell better with MORE amenities, not less, and most buyers don’t nitpick complexity that they won’t dig into anyway, or count weight by the individual pound... maybe by 250, 500, or 1000lb interval benchmark comparisons, yes... like Mustang Vs. Challenger on overall curb weight.

C: I have yet to find evidence that the S550 Mustang has a glass roof option like the S197 Mustang did., and S550 is head and shoulders the better car otherwise, far eclipsing the disappointment of not having a glass roof or sunroof option for the coupe.

Nauraushaun > dogisbadob 03/01/2019 at 00:04

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Plastic? Sounds awful. Surely they flex and leak more than strong rigid glass